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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/20/17 11:53 pm    Post subject: Lids Retro Classic Cubs Wool Review Reply with quote
About a month ago, Lids had sent me a Mitchell & Ness Cavaliers cap when I ordered this... Mad I sent it back fuming mad and tried to forget the whole thing, but eventually decided I wanted the cap more than I wanted to hold a grudge against Lids. Since the Retros this time around are a Lids exclusive, I finally relented. Ordered this shipped to store on Monday, and it arrived today - about half a week ahead of schedule, according to the website. I'll take it! This time they actually sent me what I ordered:





All things considered, I'm very pleased. I've never owned any type of NE Retro / throwback before, and while not perfect...I would rank this cap 90% or above as compared to a real, period correct Diamond Collection cap from the early 90's - which is what they were going for apparently with the wool, flat-sewn logos, and flat batterman. I happen to have one to compare. Some points, in random order good and bad:

* Wool is MUSA with imported materials. Real caps from the 90's of course would have been 100% Made in the USA. The material is pretty close to a spot-on match, at least so far as I can tell. It's that same light and flexible wool as in my older caps, feels great.

* Grey undervisor, but the inside seam taping is white - whereas the original caps I believe all had black. The earlier green undervisor would have been a nice touch, but this works too:





* The logo compared to my '95 Cubs road cap is pretty much spot on. I know there is another thread somewhere where folks are detailing other teams and how NE screwed-up the Mariners, Chief Wahoo, and even the old curly que White Sox - but a Cubs flat-sewn logo I guess is pretty standard. That or it's one of the ones they actually kept the original screen on. No complaints here - other than some errant threads which I had to do surgery on to fix. Logo positioning on this one is a bit high in comparison to most of my modern Cubs caps - but that was also a period correct trait in some of the 90's Diamond Collection caps if I recall. I prefer them lower, but this is such a great looking cap all around in other respects I believe I'm going to let that particular detail slide.



*Batterman on the back is the same also, flat-sewn and only difference between the real '95 cap and this one is that the border on the original one is slightly thinner. The batterman on this new one out of the box was slightly askew - to my chagrin- with the right side being tilted slightly higher along the seam line - but I was able to fix this by performing some thread surgery under the hood in the back to pull it down a bit to where it's much less noticeable. I think this is much easier to do with wool / flat-sewn batterman than with poly. I tried once to do it on a modern cap and couldn't get a needle through all that raised embroidery...




Retro batterman left, original '95 cap batterman right.

*Overall fit? Am I a nerd for being excited that I actually get to break a wool cap in again? I haven't done this with a brand new cap that I purchased myself since 1999. I want to say that while the wool will no doubt weather and shrink like the originals - the off-the-shelf fit on this cap is more in-line with a modern 59Fifty than it is with an original DC. The caps back then seemed to have a bit of a "cone" shape as they went up in the structured crown. This '95 Cubs hat that I have pictured alongside the new one still displays a bit of that look when I wear it, though the wool is so soft at this point, even the buckram just lays back on my head. Will be interesting to see how this new Retro molds to my head.

*Last but not least - color? My original road cap in the below pic is a bit weathered, but the original early 90's Cubs hats were obviously done in the old, darker blue. This one is the new, lighter shade. They changed the official color a few years back for on-fields. Certainly not a deal breaker, but I would have to deduct authenticity points on NE if they were truly going for a 100% period correct cap to 1992 (the first year the batterman was used) on color.

PS - Oh yeah, NO NE FLAG!!!




Lids Retro Classic, left; Original 1995 Diamond Collection Cubs road, right.

Thoughts? I'm going to have fun with this one...

-John
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wallyhopp
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Color is so far off that I cannot give NE or lids any sort of credit here.. Their intention was going about as cheaply as possible using the same royal blue on an all "blue" mlb retro classics as possible.. Definite negative marks in my book. I don't even think they attempted the darker royal blue.


I've mentioned here, along with other places, this retro classic line is basically a meshing of eras to create a hybrid "what if". You basically bought a common era cubs hat (in color), with an old school flat logo, and old school materials.. So for some, that sort of thing is pretty cool. I can count about 30 other caps that have this sort of meshing of eras creating something that is more of a hybrid than something actually worn on field.

As far as the inside seam taping, I have a 2000 era wool that I was able to compare. The crown seam taping is in fact black. But that's the least of their worries. A lighter royal blue flat logoed grey under wool cap invokes a certain energy. I'm not getting that when the color is off. Its some fake hybrid as far as im concerned

I posted about 40+ issues a week or two back. If you can get past the "technicalities", a lot of these hats are some pretty cool hybrids. But IMHO, they aren't $40 cool hybrids.
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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
wallyhopp wrote:
So for some, that sort of thing is pretty cool....

But IMHO, they aren't $40 cool hybrids.


I guess I'm easily pleased. Smile

I like the idea of the retro creation, trying do to a "new" old hat with wool and the flat logos. Particularly for the Cubs, I have always loved that flat logo better, 1) because it's what I first bought as a kid and 2) because of increasing shoddy quality, how easy it is apparently for them to screw-up a logo as simple as the Cubs now with the raised embroidery. You literally see it all the time. With the Chinese caps on the shelves now, I can walk into a Lids most times and show you 2 or 3 different "variations" of a Cubs logo. Frightening.

As for the color, yes I know it's not period correct, I guess it's just not a deal breaker for me. Given NE's penchant for making hardly anything historical "correct", I guess I just didn't have that high of expectations going in. This is the same company a couple of years ago who put their NE flags on the side of their super expensive "Heritage" (I believe it was called) line of retro caps with leather sweatbands, etc. that they charged like $50 for. What, you mean Lou Gehrig didn't rock the NE flag back in the day?

I digress. Yes, if you are looking for a totally accurate recreation of a 1992-95 Diamond Collection cap - this falls short in several different ways. But at least for my tastes and this team, this comes closer than many other things I've seen (the "Wool Classic" line was similar, but had a tonal flag...) and it will be neat to play around with a wool cap again for the first time in a long time.

Agree with you that $40 would be pretty steep for this. I waited for a discount and got it for like $27 delivered...
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Ronnieb
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Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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Location: Wilmington, NC

Post Posted: 10/21/17 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: Lids Retro Classic Cubs Wool Review Reply with quote
jchcollins wrote:
About a month ago, Lids had sent me a Mitchell & Ness Cavaliers cap when I ordered this... Mad I sent it back fuming mad and tried to forget the whole thing, but eventually decided I wanted the cap more than I wanted to hold a grudge against Lids. Since the Retros this time around are a Lids exclusive, I finally relented. Ordered this shipped to store on Monday, and it arrived today - about half a week ahead of schedule, according to the website. I'll take it! This time they actually sent me what I ordered:





All things considered, I'm very pleased. I've never owned any type of NE Retro / throwback before, and while not perfect...I would rank this cap 90% or above as compared to a real, period correct Diamond Collection cap from the early 90's - which is what they were going for apparently with the wool, flat-sewn logos, and flat batterman. I happen to have one to compare. Some points, in random order good and bad:

* Wool is MUSA with imported materials. Real caps from the 90's of course would have been 100% Made in the USA. The material is pretty close to a spot-on match, at least so far as I can tell. It's that same light and flexible wool as in my older caps, feels great.

* Grey undervisor, but the inside seam taping is white - whereas the original caps I believe all had black. The earlier green undervisor would have been a nice touch, but this works too:





* The logo compared to my '95 Cubs road cap is pretty much spot on. I know there is another thread somewhere where folks are detailing other teams and how NE screwed-up the Mariners, Chief Wahoo, and even the old curly que White Sox - but a Cubs flat-sewn logo I guess is pretty standard. That or it's one of the ones they actually kept the original screen on. No complaints here - other than some errant threads which I had to do surgery on to fix. Logo positioning on this one is a bit high in comparison to most of my modern Cubs caps - but that was also a period correct trait in some of the 90's Diamond Collection caps if I recall. I prefer them lower, but this is such a great looking cap all around in other respects I believe I'm going to let that particular detail slide.



*Batterman on the back is the same also, flat-sewn and only difference between the real '95 cap and this one is that the border on the original one is slightly thinner. The batterman on this new one out of the box was slightly askew - to my chagrin- with the right side being tilted slightly higher along the seam line - but I was able to fix this by performing some thread surgery under the hood in the back to pull it down a bit to where it's much less noticeable. I think this is much easier to do with wool / flat-sewn batterman than with poly. I tried once to do it on a modern cap and couldn't get a needle through all that raised embroidery...




Retro batterman left, original '95 cap batterman right.

*Overall fit? Am I a nerd for being excited that I actually get to break a wool cap in again? I haven't done this with a brand new cap that I purchased myself since 1999. I want to say that while the wool will no doubt weather and shrink like the originals - the off-the-shelf fit on this cap is more in-line with a modern 59Fifty than it is with an original DC. The caps back then seemed to have a bit of a "cone" shape as they went up in the structured crown. This '95 Cubs hat that I have pictured alongside the new one still displays a bit of that look when I wear it, though the wool is so soft at this point, even the buckram just lays back on my head. Will be interesting to see how this new Retro molds to my head.

*Last but not least - color? My original road cap in the below pic is a bit weathered, but the original early 90's Cubs hats were obviously done in the old, darker blue. This one is the new, lighter shade. They changed the official color a few years back for on-fields. Certainly not a deal breaker, but I would have to deduct authenticity points on NE if they were truly going for a 100% period correct cap to 1992 (the first year the batterman was used) on color.

PS - Oh yeah, NO NE FLAG!!!




Lids Retro Classic, left; Original 1995 Diamond Collection Cubs road, right.

Thoughts? I'm going to have fun with this one...

-John




GREAT review and comparison photos! Iíve been hunting older/Diamond collection caps on eBay and was hesitant to grab this Ďhybridí retro Cubs cap because of errors when compared to the real thing. Itís been said before, I just canít understand New Eraís lack of oversight or QC on the design front for this entire collection.
The photos you took make this cap look great, even if it is not period-correct in terms of tagging and shade of blue.
The added perspective of it being a hybrid, and the newer shade of blue (which Iíve grown to like more than the older, darker shade), and the fact that your photos made this cap look so good have sold me on grabbing one.

Hereís to hoping Lids or New Era donít send me a Cavaliers hat, or some other mistake in filling the order as per the usual. Last time I ordered through Lids they sent two incorrect sizes. Smh.
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christo
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
says MUSA, Where does it say imported materials? i agree these retros are nice. ppl like to hate on lids. i wouldve kept the cavs hat btw. mitchell and ness x flexfit. going to be a collectors item.
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Ronnieb
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
christo wrote:
says MUSA, Where does it say imported materials? i agree these retros are nice. ppl like to hate on lids. i wouldve kept the cavs hat btw. mitchell and ness x flexfit. going to be a collectors item.


Says with imported materials underneath made in USA, covered by threads.
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christo
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ronnieb wrote:
christo wrote:
says MUSA, Where does it say imported materials? i agree these retros are nice. ppl like to hate on lids. i wouldve kept the cavs hat btw. mitchell and ness x flexfit. going to be a collectors item.


Says with imported materials underneath made in USA, covered by threads.


wow what a joke
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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
christo wrote:
says MUSA, Where does it say imported materials? i agree these retros are nice. ppl like to hate on lids. i wouldve kept the cavs hat btw. mitchell and ness x flexfit. going to be a collectors item.


LOL, I'm a baseball (Cubs) fan only, and know virtually nothing about other sports. When you say Cavs, I think of Lebron at the WS last year heckling my team. Shocked Not a good memory.
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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Lids Retro Classic Cubs Wool Review Reply with quote
Ronnieb wrote:

GREAT review and comparison photos! Iíve been hunting older/Diamond collection caps on eBay and was hesitant to grab this Ďhybridí retro Cubs cap because of errors when compared to the real thing. Itís been said before, I just canít understand New Eraís lack of oversight or QC on the design front for this entire collection.
The photos you took make this cap look great, even if it is not period-correct in terms of tagging and shade of blue.
The added perspective of it being a hybrid, and the newer shade of blue (which Iíve grown to like more than the older, darker shade), and the fact that your photos made this cap look so good have sold me on grabbing one.

Hereís to hoping Lids or New Era donít send me a Cavaliers hat, or some other mistake in filling the order as per the usual. Last time I ordered through Lids they sent two incorrect sizes. Smh.


Thanks. I was hesitant too because of 1) Lids horrible customer service on mail orders and 2) NE's generally crappy QC. Normally when I order a cap in the mail I will get at least two so that I can send the lesser one back. I didn't want to spring for that this time, so was preparing myself for this one to come in with a deal-breaker problem like a crooked visor, or a wayyyy O/C logo - but thankfully it did not. The batterman was crooked, but I was able to fix that.

If you are into the Cubs I would go for this one, it's not often you see the flat-sewn logo on new caps anymore. This one is going to take a bit of work to break in, so we'll see how it goes. I too have picked up several older caps in recent years online - including a 1990 model Diamond Collection, and what (based on the tagging) is a 1985-87 model 5950 with the green undervisor and no batterman. Of course back then they had yet to put a Diamond Collection tag in them, or to actually call them "5950's." These caps have been cool to play with, but don't really work as wearers, because they are so old and have various issues with shrinking and the crown that are never going to go away. I can wear them, but I look goofy at best and about like a 12 year old kid (I'm 40...) right away.

My normal everyday wearers are USA made poly Low Crown's anymore. But I will agree that if you can find and properly break-in a nice wool cap with a flat-sewn logo - well, those are just hard to beat. They are so much lighter and breathable. The road cap I have picture above I got right before I went away to college in 1995. I must have forgotten about it after wearing a few times, because I found it in a trunk nearly 20 years later - still virtually brand new. Since then I wear it on special occasions and it's one of my favorites and best fitting caps.
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Guy Gadbois
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
First of all: yes Mr. Collins, you're probably a nerd. But I suspect most of us on here are too, myself included, so I wouldn't dwell on the matter. lol

And that is a good looking wool reproduction besides the incorrect shade of blue. That would be a deal breaker for me personally but I'm glad you're happy with it. Wink
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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guy Gadbois wrote:
First of all: yes Mr. Collins, you're probably a nerd. But I suspect most of us on here are too, myself included, so I wouldn't dwell on the matter. lol

And that is a good looking wool reproduction besides the incorrect shade of blue. That would be a deal breaker for me personally but I'm glad you're happy with it. Wink


Yeah, the color is not a problem for me for a second, sorry. Remember Iím not technically a New Era purist (kidding...) like some of you here; I also have a lot of 3930ís and Ď47 dad caps. I just like hats. So maybe this is more accurately termed a ďhybridĒ retro. Works for me. This is kind of a secondary hobby for me anyway - my first love will always be old baseball cards.

Yes, totally a nerd. Thatís the good thing about getting older, you really just donít care anymore. 😊
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wallyhopp
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Post Posted: 10/21/17 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not to derail the thread too much . Color changes or discrepancies in sports fascinates me.

To continue with the Cubs theme, I have a 2004 era wool on field side by side with a 2012 era on field.


Colors arenít even really close. The darker deeper royal now seems to feel more like a purple or a light navy color compared to just how bright and blue the franchise chose to go.

The contrast is stark. Yet over the years we may have felt the change wasnít so drastic. WRONG. I follow the Indians on fields and their differences over the years are head ache inducing.

I mentioned in the retro classic error thread, a lot of these caps arenít terribly off if you can live with the hybrid nature of these caps. I guess itís more of what size I wear but I was able to snag this cubs wool cap not long ago for any more than $20 shipped. The retro classic line is nullified for a few of the caps I want in my collection.

I almost want to say the retro classic C logo is a tad too big in size. Close enough I guess. OPs last photo seems to showcase more of the retro classic C than the Ď95 original. It could just be a color illusion. But it still seems a tad too big.
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jchcollins
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Post Posted: 10/23/17 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
wallyhopp wrote:
Not to derail the thread too much . Color changes or discrepancies in sports fascinates me.

...

I almost want to say the retro classic C logo is a tad too big in size. Close enough I guess. OPs last photo seems to showcase more of the retro classic C than the Ď95 original. It could just be a color illusion. But it still seems a tad too big.


Sorry, I didn't have them proportionate for comparisons of the logos on my road cap. See below. I would maintain the retro classic "C" is about as spot on as you can get:


L-R: Original 1990 Diamond Collection, the controversial Retro Classic, and a 2017 AC Poly.

First two have the old school flat-sewn logo. These were always a tad thicker in the red "C" part, at least on modern caps in comparison to raised embroidery. There were some in the mid 1960's that were noticeably thinner, I think those made by McAuliffe. In this picture, only the newest cap on the right has a raised logo. But size and circumference wise, I think they are all very comparable.

What strikes me after I found my home '90 DC Cubs is that to me anyway, the colors just aren't all that different. Ok, I guess the Retro Classic is a tad lighter than the original cap. But it's not something I would scream at as being "wrong" like when I'm in a store and see a butchered-modern "Brooklyn Dodgers" logo. I don't know. My example is not as stark as the one in your wool vs. the poly.

As an aside, see if you can find a '47 Brand adjustable Cubs hat at a Lids or somewhere. Not the Dad caps, but their poly (I guess?) that is more supposed to resemble the on-field cap. I'll be damned if they don't use the old darker blue. Compare it to a NE in the store and you can see the difference right away.
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